And I tell you, everyone who acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man also will acknowledge before the angels of God, but the one who denies me before men will be denied before the angels of God
First I want to be clear - God requires payment for my sin. And the Bible declares that "for by grace are you saved, not of works, lest any man should boast, for it is the "gift" of God.
So I can't do anything to earn it, or lose it. Once accepted, it's mine and will not be removed from me. Since I'm not the author of my own salvation, I cannot dispute it, earn it, or be good enough to receive it; I can only accept it, or reject it.
John 10:28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand
Just to give an example of the moral justification and disordered submission to Christ the Catholic Church has, take this passage, take directly from Catholic documents.
The Homosexual Inclination is Objectively Disordered
'Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong tendency toward an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder." CDF Letter, no.3
Jesus said, If you look with lust.You have already committed adultery...
In context Jesus was saying that the law does not justify, it's only God's grace and mercy that justifies. However, the Catholic Church stands directly against that. Tell me I'm wrong.
The Homosexual Inclination is Objectively Disordered
'Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong tendency toward an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder." CDF Letter, no.3
Jesus said, If you look with lust.You have already committed adultery...
In context Jesus was saying that the law does not justify, it's only God's grace and mercy that justifies. However, the Catholic Church stands directly against that. Tell me I'm wrong.
you are wrong sorry Seraphim. I see you did not understand what the CCC is stating. It is not a sin to be a homosexual or to be a heterosexual...to act on this though (have sex outside of marriage or in the case of homosexuals have homosexual sex acts) is the sin.
The act of lust, adultery is a sin regardless of someones sexual orientation. What the CCC is saying is that being attracted to the same sex is not a sin, acting on that attraction is. Homosexuals like single heterosexuals are called to live a chaste life.
RE: The act of lust, adultery is a sin regardless of someones sexual orientation. What the CCC is saying is that being attracted to the same sex is not a sin, acting on that attraction is.
Accepted.
RE: So what payment have you given for your sin?
No payment. Christ was my substitute and my sole responsibilty is to accept that and follow him. Are you telling me that you can overcome with sin, that which God sent his Son to vanquish?
With that premise, God is either flawed or you are. One of you is. I submit it's probably you. ;)
Let's use an example since I know Catholics tend to be a works based society.
I say to you, I will give you any amount of money that you require, all you have to do is believe that I will, and it's yours. Is there now anything you can or need to do to earn that money? Can you earn that money? Can you lose the right to claim that money? Only by a lack of faith could you lose the money since it was only faith that granted it to you. Salvation is exactly the same.
you where the one that stated in the second post "First I want to be clear - God requires payment for my sin. "... You did write that didn't you?? So I simply asked what payment did you make for your sin.
I made no payment. My payment was made for me through Christ. I accept his payment.
Did you NOT say this? First I want to be clear - God requires payment for my sin.
It's like someone paid for my meal, when I didn't have the money.
I get this analogy but what does this have to do with your salvation ???
I thought I said that - am I missing what you're saying?
I think we are both missing what the other is saying.
you said in your first comment (look to the left if your in the Leave your comment box or look up if your reading the comments )... First I want to be clear - God requires payment for my sin. So I ask what is your payment??? You said God requires payment for my sin....
If you died in mortal sin (not in grace with God) are you still guaranteed salvation?
"What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?" (James. 2:14). "So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead" (James. 2:17). "You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" (James. 2:24).
If you died in mortal sin (not in grace with God) are you still guaranteed salvation?
Theologically we can get deep and pretty far into the weeds. But yes, you cannot lose your salvation. Once you have it, it's assured. In reference to your quotes of James - you must take into context the message of James. He's right, faith without works IS dead. The whole book is based on "how" to be a good Christian. James himself was not the author of his own or anyone elses salvation. While we can all agree that Paul and James look a different sides of the same house under construction, it is through the words of Jesus that we recieve the hope that is within us. And it is he that says we cannot be plucked out of his hands.
Now, do us a favor and respond as to your interpretation of John where Jesus says that no man shall be plucked from my hand. Let's start there.
But yes, you cannot lose your salvation. Once you have it, it's assured.
So, as an example, you can murder your spouse or neighbor and die shortly after the act and still be saved?
In regards to my quotes from James...so you are saying that works are not needed even though James says they are?
In regards to John 10..... some Jewish leaders were hoping he would call himself the Messiah. Instead, Jesus refers to himself as "the Good Shepherd." He describes the secure and lasting relationship he has with his sheep, those who truly hear him and believe. Just as no one can separate Jesus and his Father, no one can take Jesus' disciples away from him.
Answer to second question: No - God saves. God alone saves, by offering mercy to me. My faith is only the realization of that mercy. So in a way, all that is required is faith, but the presumes that God has predestined me to be called. Which he has.
My sins are covered.
I'm going to ask you a question and I want an answer - What was Christ's death good for if it didn't cover all sins, past, present and future?
A follower of Christ cannot be separated from him. No matter what. You just proved my point.
Of course a follower of Christ can be separated from him, silly :) Here is an example... I am a follower of Christ, attempting to follow his laws etc., one day I kill my husband. By commiting the act of murder I am seperated from Christ (I am not in his good graces so to speak).
But in your scenario I could be a follower of Christ, kill my husband and still be in God's good graces.
That makes no sense Seraphim...sorry. What you are saying is that you could be a person like Hitler and as a long as you have "faith" you are ok. God does not reward bad behaviour!
What was Christ's death good for if it didn't cover all sins, past, present and future?
From the sufferings and death of Christ we learn God's love for man and the evil of sin, for which God, who is all-just, demands such great satisfaction.
-It was not necessary for Jesus to suffer so intensely in order to redeem all men. As His merits are infinite, He could have wiped away the sins of a thousand worlds by shedding one drop of His blood. But He chose to suffer agonies because He loves us. "Greater love than this no one has, that one lay down his life for his friends" (John 15:13). "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for his sheep ... I am the good shepherd; and I know mine and mine know me. ... and I lay down my life for my sheep" (John 10:11-15).
-From the Passion of Christ we learn the evil that sin is, and the hatred that God bears it. We learn the necessity of satisfying for the malice and wickedness that is sin. Sin must be a horrible thing, to make Jesus Christ the God-man suffer so much. By Christ's obedience He atoned for Adam's disobedience, for He was obedient unto death. "He was wounded for our iniquities; he was bruised for our sins" (Is. 53:5).
-The sufferings of Christ, in addition, serve as an example for us, to strengthen us under trials.
-By the Redemption is meant that Jesus Christ, as Redeemer of the whole human race, offered His sufferings and death to God as a fitting sacrifice in satisfaction for the sins of men, and regained for them the right to be children of God and heirs of heaven.
That's just where we disagree. You believe that works are necessary for salvation, but even in your own writing you contradict yourself. I don't think that you realize that when you speak for Christ, unless he gave you the words, you're speaking with the possibility of errancy.
Here's what you said, but I'm bolding the words that make my point, even though you wrote them.
-By the Redemption is meant that Jesus Christ, as Redeemer of the whole human race, offered His sufferings and death to God as a fitting sacrifice in satisfaction for the sins of men, and regained for them the right to be children of God and heirs of heaven.
You're absolutely right, Christ's sacrifice was mans redemption for his sins. WE CAN'T DO ANYTHING to match that. Our contrition and repentance is necessary because you're to abide in Christ. I've thought about this for a long time (being able to lose your salvation). What I've come up with and this has been validated by many good teachers and theologians is that;
God regenerates you via his holy spirit. You now seek God where before you could not, you are told when you offend the spirit and you seek to regain communion with God. These are things he puts in you; they are not of ourselves.
For by Grace are ye saved, not of works, lest any man should boast. It is the gift of God.
jer 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?
and finally from our brother Paul...
23. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24. Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25. Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26. To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27. Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
OK then seraphim...I am off on a killing spree...but since I have "faith" I'll see ya in heaven.
Do you realize how silly that sounds? But that is what you are saying. Sin all you want it does not matter as long as you have faith. God hates sin, Seraphim. and your view point is a bit skewed if you think you can sin all you want and still be in God's good graces.
Catholics totally agree that faith is necessary to salvation. Without it we are lost. We would also say we that the Bible has called us to respond to that faith by doing what Jesus would have us do, and that failure to do so is a serious sin, which could put our souls in jeopardy. (Mat 7:20, 1 Cor 9:16, James 2:14-16) We can lose this precious gift of faith as St. Paul indicated to St. Timothy: "wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith" (1 Tim 1:18-19)
James 2:14-16 "What good is it, my brothers if you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you. If a brother is naked and lacks daily food. If one of you says to them, 'Go in peace, keep warm and eat your fill', and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead."
For those who are doubtful about the place of good works in the plan of Redemption should read the James 2:14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him? James 2:17-18 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith. James 2:20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? James 2:24Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? James 2:26For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.
__________________________________ (a) Faith and no works may be described as the Lutheran view. "Esto peccator, pecca fortiter sed fortius fide" was the heresiarch's axiom, and the Diet of Worms, in 1527, condemned the doctrine that good works are not necessary for salvation. (b) Works and no faith may be described as the modern view, for the modern world strives to make the worship of humanity take the place of the worship of the Deity (Do we believe? as issued by the Rationalist Press, 1904, ch. x: "Creed and Conduct" and ch. xv: "Rationalism and Morality". Cf. also Christianity and Rationalism on Trial, published by the same press, 1904). (c) Faith shown by works has ever been the doctrine of the Catholic Church and is explicitly taught by St. James, ii, 17: "Faith, if it have not works, is dead." The Council of Trent (Sess. VI, canons xix, xx, xxiv, and xxvi) condemned the various aspects of the Lutheran doctrine, and from what has been said above on the necessity of charity for "living" faith, it will be evident that faith does not exclude, but demands, good works, for charity or love of God is not real unless it induces us to keep the Commandments; "He that keepeth his word, in him in very deed the charity of God is perfected" (1 John 2:5). St. Augustine sums up the whole question by saying "Laudo fructum boni operis, sed in fide agnosco radicem" -- i.e. "I praise the fruit of good works, but their root I discern in faith" (Enarr. in Ps. http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:McBjlSXfP6kJ:www.newadvent.org/cathen/0, P.L., IV, 259).
______________________________________
Faith is the supernatural virtue which is necessary for salvation. It is a free gift of God and is accessible to all who humbly seek it. The act of faith is a human act, that is, an act of the intellect of a person - prompted by the will moved by God - who freely assents to divine truth. Faith is also certain because it is founded on the Word of God; it works “through charity” (Galatians 5:6); and it continually grows through listening to the Word of God and through prayer. It is, even now, a foretaste of the joys of heaven. http://www.vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html
Ok I am done now Seraphim...what is our next topic that we can disagree on??
karin - i wouldn't know for sure, but there may be an argument that someone who is in love with Christ and was truly filled with the spirit in the first place would not go on a killing spree.
but that's getting us further in the weeds, too, because how could I really know? i too believe that my salvation can not be taken away. God gave me a gift. He will take it back if I am not good enough? This part of Catholic theology/teaching leaves me scratching my head and I have a hard time reconciling it. It seems more to be in line with the way 'man' thinks things should be than the way God planned it.
I didn't know that. That will need to be clarified. The Bible is CLEAR that there are people that leave the faith, and they are NOT saved...but that is because they never were.
In john is says, they went OUT FROM us, but they weren't OF us.
did you know our church does not believe in once saved, always saved? I just learned this.
and then you said this...
i too believe that my salvation can not be taken away.
Sounds like conflicting beliefs.
i wouldn't know for sure, but there may be an argument that someone who is in love with Christ and was truly filled with the spirit in the first place would not go on a killing spree.
Faith alone does not save, but that is what you (I assume) and Seraphim believe. So if that is the case than me going on a murdering rampage is ok, I am still saved because i have "faith". Doesnt make sense, right? With that thinking then people like Hitler, if he had "faith" would be saved.
but karin, that's the basic problem. Hitler's being in heaven or hell is between he and God, right? you're deciding who gets to heaven and who doesn't based on your limited human view of things, regardless of what the Bible says.
but karin, that's the basic problem. Hitler's being in heaven or hell is between he and God, right?
Totally agree :)
you're deciding who gets to heaven and who doesn't based on your limited human view of things, regardless of what the Bible says.
That does not sit well with me
I am not deciding anything. What I was attempting to point out is that FAITH ALONE does not save nor is it any GUARANTEE of salvation. (hence my murdering rampage.) But you both feel that faith alone is all that is required. That is what makes no sense, sorry. I guess that is the problem with sola scripture it just makes no sense. The only person that knows if you are saved is God :) the rest of us can only assume
Pip is right and you agreed, then you justified your opposition to that belief with 'sola scriptura'...
Demonstrating by what you say, the CC interpretation of information is better than your own or anyone else's, so whatever the CC says goes. There's a caveat you may be overlooking there, if in fact that is true.
As a follower of Christ must either be able to interpret scripture yourself, or be able to interpret the pope's interpretation of scripture. One way or the other you MUST interpret for yourself what truth is.
I don't mean to offend, but if the Bible disagrees with the pope, who's right?
32 comments:
So you believe that once you have received God's grace, you know you are definitively saved?
Define your version of God's Grace.
First I want to be clear - God requires payment for my sin. And the Bible declares that "for by grace are you saved, not of works, lest any man should boast, for it is the "gift" of God.
So I can't do anything to earn it, or lose it. Once accepted, it's mine and will not be removed from me. Since I'm not the author of my own salvation, I cannot dispute it, earn it, or be good enough to receive it; I can only accept it, or reject it.
John 10:28
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand
Just to give an example of the moral justification and disordered submission to Christ the Catholic Church has, take this passage, take directly from Catholic documents.
The Homosexual Inclination is Objectively Disordered
'Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong tendency toward an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder." CDF Letter, no.3
Jesus said, If you look with lust.You have already committed adultery...
In context Jesus was saying that the law does not justify, it's only God's grace and mercy that justifies. However, the Catholic Church stands directly against that. Tell me I'm wrong.
So all that is required is "grace" to be saved??
The Homosexual Inclination is Objectively Disordered
'Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong tendency toward an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder." CDF Letter, no.3
Jesus said, If you look with lust.You have already committed adultery...
In context Jesus was saying that the law does not justify, it's only God's grace and mercy that justifies. However, the Catholic Church stands directly against that. Tell me I'm wrong.
you are wrong sorry Seraphim. I see you did not understand what the CCC is stating.
It is not a sin to be a homosexual or to be a heterosexual...to act on this though (have sex outside of marriage or in the case of homosexuals have homosexual sex acts) is the sin.
The act of lust, adultery is a sin regardless of someones sexual orientation.
What the CCC is saying is that being attracted to the same sex is not a sin, acting on that attraction is.
Homosexuals like single heterosexuals are called to live a chaste life.
God requires payment for my sin.
So what payment have you given for your sin?
RE: The act of lust, adultery is a sin regardless of someones sexual orientation.
What the CCC is saying is that being attracted to the same sex is not a sin, acting on that attraction is.
Accepted.
RE:
So what payment have you given for your sin?
No payment. Christ was my substitute and my sole responsibilty is to accept that and follow him. Are you telling me that you can overcome with sin, that which God sent his Son to vanquish?
With that premise, God is either flawed or you are. One of you is. I submit it's probably you. ;)
Let's use an example since I know Catholics tend to be a works based society.
I say to you, I will give you any amount of money that you require, all you have to do is believe that I will, and it's yours. Is there now anything you can or need to do to earn that money? Can you earn that money? Can you lose the right to claim that money? Only by a lack of faith could you lose the money since it was only faith that granted it to you. Salvation is exactly the same.
Seraphim...
you where the one that stated in the second post "First I want to be clear - God requires payment for my sin. "...
You did write that didn't you??
So I simply asked what payment did you make for your sin.
I made no payment. My payment was made for me through Christ. I accept his payment.
It's like someone paid for my meal, when I didn't have the money.
I thought I said that - am I missing what you're saying?
I made no payment. My payment was made for me through Christ. I accept his payment.
Did you NOT say this?
First I want to be clear - God requires payment for my sin.
It's like someone paid for my meal, when I didn't have the money.
I get this analogy but what does this have to do with your salvation ???
I thought I said that - am I missing what you're saying?
I think we are both missing what the other is saying.
you said in your first comment (look to the left if your in the Leave your comment box or look up if your reading the comments )...
First I want to be clear - God requires payment for my sin.
So I ask what is your payment??? You said God requires payment for my sin....
Can I ask...to better understand your stance...
If you died in mortal sin (not in grace with God) are you still guaranteed salvation?
"What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him?" (James. 2:14).
"So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead" (James. 2:17).
"You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" (James. 2:24).
If you died in mortal sin (not in grace with God) are you still guaranteed salvation?
Theologically we can get deep and pretty far into the weeds. But yes, you cannot lose your salvation. Once you have it, it's assured. In reference to your quotes of James - you must take into context the message of James. He's right, faith without works IS dead. The whole book is based on "how" to be a good Christian. James himself was not the author of his own or anyone elses salvation. While we can all agree that Paul and James look a different sides of the same house under construction, it is through the words of Jesus that we recieve the hope that is within us. And it is he that says we cannot be plucked out of his hands.
Now, do us a favor and respond as to your interpretation of John where Jesus says that no man shall be plucked from my hand. Let's start there.
But yes, you cannot lose your salvation. Once you have it, it's assured.
So, as an example, you can murder your spouse or neighbor and die shortly after the act and still be saved?
In regards to my quotes from James...so you are saying that works are not needed even though James says they are?
In regards to John 10..... some Jewish leaders were hoping he would call himself the Messiah. Instead, Jesus refers to himself as "the Good Shepherd." He describes the secure and lasting relationship he has with his sheep, those who truly hear him and believe. Just as no one can separate Jesus and his Father, no one can take Jesus' disciples away from him.
Seraphim
Would this be correct from your view point "faith alone saves"?
Answer to first question: yes.
Answer to second question: No - God saves. God alone saves, by offering mercy to me. My faith is only the realization of that mercy. So in a way, all that is required is faith, but the presumes that God has predestined me to be called. Which he has.
My sins are covered.
I'm going to ask you a question and I want an answer - What was Christ's death good for if it didn't cover all sins, past, present and future?
Just as no one can separate Jesus and his Father, no one can take Jesus' disciples away from him.
Not even you right? So, how is it we disagree here? A follower of Christ cannot be separated from him. No matter what. You just proved my point.
A follower of Christ cannot be separated from him. No matter what. You just proved my point.
Of course a follower of Christ can be separated from him, silly :)
Here is an example...
I am a follower of Christ, attempting to follow his laws etc., one day I kill my husband. By commiting the act of murder I am seperated from Christ (I am not in his good graces so to speak).
But in your scenario I could be a follower of Christ, kill my husband and still be in God's good graces.
That makes no sense Seraphim...sorry. What you are saying is that you could be a person like Hitler and as a long as you have "faith" you are ok. God does not reward bad behaviour!
What was Christ's death good for if it didn't cover all sins, past, present and future?
From the sufferings and death of Christ we learn God's love for man and the evil of sin, for which God, who is all-just, demands such great satisfaction.
-It was not necessary for Jesus to suffer so intensely in order to redeem all men. As His merits are infinite, He could have wiped away the sins of a thousand worlds by shedding one drop of His blood. But He chose to suffer agonies because He loves us.
"Greater love than this no one has, that one lay down his life for his friends" (John 15:13). "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for his sheep ... I am the good shepherd; and I know mine and mine know me. ... and I lay down my life for my sheep" (John 10:11-15).
-From the Passion of Christ we learn the evil that sin is, and the hatred that God bears it. We learn the necessity of satisfying for the malice and wickedness that is sin. Sin must be a horrible thing, to make Jesus Christ the God-man suffer so much.
By Christ's obedience He atoned for Adam's disobedience, for He was obedient unto death. "He was wounded for our iniquities; he was bruised for our sins" (Is. 53:5).
-The sufferings of Christ, in addition, serve as an example for us, to strengthen us under trials.
-By the Redemption is meant that Jesus Christ, as Redeemer of the whole human race, offered His sufferings and death to God as a fitting sacrifice in satisfaction for the sins of men, and regained for them the right to be children of God and heirs of heaven.
That's just where we disagree. You believe that works are necessary for salvation, but even in your own writing you contradict yourself. I don't think that you realize that when you speak for Christ, unless he gave you the words, you're speaking with the possibility of errancy.
Here's what you said, but I'm bolding the words that make my point, even though you wrote them.
-By the Redemption is meant that Jesus Christ, as Redeemer of the whole human race, offered His sufferings and death to God as a fitting sacrifice in satisfaction for the sins of men, and regained for them the right to be children of God and heirs of heaven.
You're absolutely right, Christ's sacrifice was mans redemption for his sins. WE CAN'T DO ANYTHING to match that. Our contrition and repentance is necessary because you're to abide in Christ. I've thought about this for a long time (being able to lose your salvation). What I've come up with and this has been validated by many good teachers and theologians is that;
God regenerates you via his holy spirit. You now seek God where before you could not, you are told when you offend the spirit and you seek to regain communion with God. These are things he puts in you; they are not of ourselves.
For by Grace are ye saved, not of works, lest any man should boast. It is the gift of God.
jer 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?
and finally from our brother Paul...
23. For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24. Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25. Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26. To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27. Where [is] boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
I can't say it anymore clearly.
OK then seraphim...I am off on a killing spree...but since I have "faith" I'll see ya in heaven.
Do you realize how silly that sounds? But that is what you are saying. Sin all you want it does not matter as long as you have faith.
God hates sin, Seraphim. and your view point is a bit skewed if you think you can sin all you want and still be in God's good graces.
Catholics totally agree that faith is necessary to salvation. Without it we are lost. We would also say we that the Bible has called us to respond to that faith by doing what Jesus would have us do, and that failure to do so is a serious sin, which could put our souls in jeopardy. (Mat 7:20, 1 Cor 9:16, James 2:14-16) We can lose this precious gift of faith as St. Paul indicated to St. Timothy: "wage the good warfare, holding faith and a good conscience. By rejecting conscience, certain persons have made shipwreck of their faith" (1 Tim 1:18-19)
James 2:14-16 "What good is it, my brothers if you have faith but do not have works? Can faith save you. If a brother is naked and lacks daily food. If one of you says to them, 'Go in peace, keep warm and eat your fill', and yet you do not supply their bodily needs, what is the good of that? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead."
Jer. 17:10; 32:19 God will evaluate every man according to his deeds.
For those who are doubtful about the place of good works in the plan of Redemption should read the James 2:14 What shall it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but hath not works? Shall faith be able to save him?
James 2:17-18 So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself. But some man will say: Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without works; and I will shew thee, by works, my faith.
James 2:20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
James 2:24Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only?
James 2:26For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.
__________________________________
(a) Faith and no works may be described as the Lutheran view. "Esto peccator, pecca fortiter sed fortius fide" was the heresiarch's axiom, and the Diet of Worms, in 1527, condemned the doctrine that good works are not necessary for salvation.
(b) Works and no faith may be described as the modern view, for the modern world strives to make the worship of humanity take the place of the worship of the Deity (Do we believe? as issued by the Rationalist Press, 1904, ch. x: "Creed and Conduct" and ch. xv: "Rationalism and Morality". Cf. also Christianity and Rationalism on Trial, published by the same press, 1904).
(c) Faith shown by works has ever been the doctrine of the Catholic Church and is explicitly taught by St. James, ii, 17: "Faith, if it have not works, is dead." The Council of Trent (Sess. VI, canons xix, xx, xxiv, and xxvi) condemned the various aspects of the Lutheran doctrine, and from what has been said above on the necessity of charity for "living" faith, it will be evident that faith does not exclude, but demands, good works, for charity or love of God is not real unless it induces us to keep the Commandments; "He that keepeth his word, in him in very deed the charity of God is perfected" (1 John 2:5). St. Augustine sums up the whole question by saying "Laudo fructum boni operis, sed in fide agnosco radicem" -- i.e. "I praise the fruit of good works, but their root I discern in faith" (Enarr. in Ps. http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:McBjlSXfP6kJ:www.newadvent.org/cathen/0, P.L., IV, 259).
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Faith is the supernatural virtue which is necessary for salvation. It is a free gift of God and is accessible to all who humbly seek it. The act of faith is a human act, that is, an act of the intellect of a person - prompted by the will moved by God - who freely assents to divine truth. Faith is also certain because it is founded on the Word of God; it works “through charity” (Galatians 5:6); and it continually grows through listening to the Word of God and through prayer. It is, even now, a foretaste of the joys of heaven. http://www.vatican.va/archive/compendium_ccc/documents/archive_2005_compendium-ccc_en.html
Ok I am done now Seraphim...what is our next topic that we can disagree on??
LOL. Yeah - I haven't picked it yet!!!!
Gimme a day or so - I'll serve something right up. Feel free to make a request. I'll take the topic, research and opine.
PERHAPS WE SHOULD PICK A TOPIC WE CAN AGREE ON? ;)
SORRY FOR THE CAPS...MY CAPS LOCK KEY IS TUCK..I AM NOT YELLING AT YA!
S - did you know our church does not believe in once saved, always saved? I just learned this.
karin - i wouldn't know for sure, but there may be an argument that someone who is in love with Christ and was truly filled with the spirit in the first place would not go on a killing spree.
but that's getting us further in the weeds, too, because how could I really know? i too believe that my salvation can not be taken away. God gave me a gift. He will take it back if I am not good enough? This part of Catholic theology/teaching leaves me scratching my head and I have a hard time reconciling it. It seems more to be in line with the way 'man' thinks things should be than the way God planned it.
pip;
I didn't know that. That will need to be clarified. The Bible is CLEAR that there are people that leave the faith, and they are NOT saved...but that is because they never were.
In john is says, they went OUT FROM us, but they weren't OF us.
I'll talk to Reggie.
Pipsylou...
did you know our church does not believe in once saved, always saved? I just learned this.
and then you said this...
i too believe that my salvation can not be taken away.
Sounds like conflicting beliefs.
i wouldn't know for sure, but there may be an argument that someone who is in love with Christ and was truly filled with the spirit in the first place would not go on a killing spree.
Faith alone does not save, but that is what you (I assume) and Seraphim believe. So if that is the case than me going on a murdering rampage is ok, I am still saved because i have "faith".
Doesnt make sense, right? With that thinking then people like Hitler, if he had "faith" would be saved.
but karin, that's the basic problem. Hitler's being in heaven or hell is between he and God, right? you're deciding who gets to heaven and who doesn't based on your limited human view of things, regardless of what the Bible says.
That does not sit well with me.
Pipsylou...
but karin, that's the basic problem. Hitler's being in heaven or hell is between he and God, right?
Totally agree :)
you're deciding who gets to heaven and who doesn't based on your limited human view of things, regardless of what the Bible says.
That does not sit well with me
I am not deciding anything. What I was attempting to point out is that FAITH ALONE does not save nor is it any GUARANTEE of salvation. (hence my murdering rampage.)
But you both feel that faith alone is all that is required. That is what makes no sense, sorry. I guess that is the problem with sola scripture it just makes no sense.
The only person that knows if you are saved is God :) the rest of us can only assume
karin;
Here's where you make your mistake.
Pip is right and you agreed, then you justified your opposition to that belief with 'sola scriptura'...
Demonstrating by what you say, the CC interpretation of information is better than your own or anyone else's, so whatever the CC says goes. There's a caveat you may be overlooking there, if in fact that is true.
As a follower of Christ must either be able to interpret scripture yourself, or be able to interpret the pope's interpretation of scripture. One way or the other you MUST interpret for yourself what truth is.
I don't mean to offend, but if the Bible disagrees with the pope, who's right?
seraphim...
check it out...
http://wifeandmomoftwo.wordpress.com/2007/12/01/sola-scripture/
don't mean to offend, but if the Bible disagrees with the pope, who's right?
LOL!
The Bible nor the Pope disagree with each other...that is what is wonderful about the C.C. :)
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